| 1 KILIAN
|
Sorry for my tardy entrance. Sandy and I just
returned from Montreal, where we attended a conference with Michael White.
Then we were snowed in for an extra couple of days. |
|
2 JACK
|
I'm sorry Taylor isn't going to be with us.
I was hoping to ask him more questions. Oh, well. Basically,
I felt when I came in that Jill has been extremely unfair to me, and that
any reasonable person such as a therapist would have to recognize that.
I have just been doing everything I can do, everything anyone could reasonably
do, really, but
I think Taylor was trying to tell me something, something more I could
do or something, maybe something easy. And I thought he might know, because
somehow Taylor made Jill talk a little more, well a lot more for her, and
I learned that there was something I did to her that upset her. I kissed
her when her teeth were loose after an accident. Can you imagine her being
mad about that for a year and not telling me an;ything? I did not know
that she had this problem! That's the way she typically is. Jill is just
very non-
communicative. She doesn't talk. As I say, somehow I think Taylor thought
there were other things I could do to make her talk more. And she did talk
to him, so maybe he's right. He may have been onto something, but I'm afraid
I didn't quite get it. It seemed like a mystery formula pretty much to
me. I'm sorry he isn't here, and I hope you can help me figure this out.
Maybe you can figure it out, though. |
|
| 3 Kilian |
Thanks, Jack. I'll do my best to help make some
sense of this with you and Jill. Jill, could you say
what you have learned or taken from these sessions thus
far? |
|
4 JILL
|
Like Jack I had begun to feel some hope that
Taylor could help us. That team of people that listened to us once, too,
that made me feel understood. That woman in the red blouse, she seemed
to feel my disappointment. I think I just didn't know what I was getting
into with Jack. He is so different from anyone in my family. He thinks
he doesn't understand me. I don't understand him either, and the worst
thing is that the more he talks the less I understand. So, we need help.
I hope you can help us. |
|
| 5 Kilian |
I hope so too, Jill. I'd like to learn a little
more about the ways that Taylor helped each of you, and some of the reflectors
too, if they seemed to help your hope a little. Could I ask you about that? |
|
5 JILL
|
To tell you the truth, I don't quite understand
it, but I do feel that Taylor helped me a little bit. I was
really expecting him to side with Jack. JACK: Actually, he
sided with you, Jill. (To Kilian) I don't mean completely sided with
Jill, but more than he sided with me. Taylor seemed to think that
i was doing something wrong. But, I didn't quite understand
it, but he implied that if I would change it, things would
be okay between Jill and me. For me, though, the big thing was that
he got Jill to talk, a little bit anyway. |
|
6 Kilian
|
This raises a lot of questions for me. I'm most
curious about the notion of "siding" that you both mentioned.
I'm wondering what it means for each of you for sides
to be taken, or to be sided with, or sided against. Have you
guys seen a lot of "siding" in your lives? Have you experienced
"siding?" Do you expect that a third person with the two of you will
take the side of one of you against the other? |
|
| 7 Jill |
I think I thought the men would side against
me. I really didn't find Taylor doing that, but I thought he would. Men
can't seem to understand women. |
|
8 Jack
|
I don't know where you're coming from, Jill!
I just want to make our relationship work. Here I am trying to do everything
I can to make it work and you are talking about me siding against you.
That's crazy! I just want someone to understand that I am trying everything.
I want you to appreciate it. If I'm not doing it right, I'll look at it.
What more can you expect of me. |
|
| 9 JILL
|
I don't know, Jack. sigh. Kilian, can you help
me? He always puts me on the spot like this. I think he should just try
to be more sensitive to what is going on with me. He should listen more
and talk less and he should try to understand me more. |
|
| 10 JACK |
How can I listen if you don't talk? |
|
| 11 JILL |
(shaking her head and staring at the floor) |
|
| 12 JACK |
(to Kilian) Can you see what I'm up against? |
|
13 KILIAN
|
Jack, I'm sorry but I can't, at least not yet.
I don't know what all of this is. I wouldn't want to say that I knew this,
because I don't. And I especially don't know what it is for the two of
you.
I'd like to go back just a bit to get some ideas. Is that OK? I had
asked a question about the notion of taking sides. Jill said that she thought
that the men would side against her, but that Taylor didn't do that. And
then she said that men didn't seem to understand women. Right? And then
you said that you didn't know where she was coming from. I'd like to know
where she was coming from. And what it felt like for her to not be sided
against, because you were part of that too. You know? Does that make any
sense, that you and Taylor were part of a "not siding" against
Jill? Can we take our conversation in that direction? Could you
say something about where you were coming from? Something about men not
understanding women, or not being sided against by Taylor, or even how
you might look at Jack's involvement in not siding against you with Taylor?
|
|
14 JILL
|
It seems to me that men usually think they have
things figured out. And they don't even look and try to see what's happening.
They just are headstrong. I think men are more that way than women. Don't
you? I think women are more intuitive than men. Men just have headstrong
ideas. But not always, I guess. Taylor was more intuitive. I liked that.
And maybe with Taylor around Jack was more intuitive, too, but not all
the time. Mostly he just keep saying the same thing over and over and he
(staring at Jack with shocking anger and raising her voice in an alarming
way) DOESN'T LOOK! |
|
| 15 JACK |
(Pulling his head back looking very surprised.)
Woo! (turning towards Kilian.) Where did that come from? (Then slumping
into an observers posture.) |
|
16 JILL
|
(She turns to look at Kilian. The anger
has melted off of Jill's face, and she takes a deep audible breath. A very
slight smile might be creeping, just for an instant, across her face. Hard
to tell. But it would be easy for many to interpret the configuration of
her face, then, as self-satisfaction, whether that is true or not. ) |
|
17 KILIAN
|
Jill, something you just said caught my attention.
Could you say something about the differences between what you called "looking
and seeing," and what you called "headstrong," and "having things figured
out?" How can you tell when someone is doing "looking and seeing," and
when they "have things figured out?"
Jack, I'm going to ask you to just sit back and observe this, OK?
Jill, could you talk about this distinction?
|
|
| 18 JILL
|
It's just that Jack thinks he has everything
figured out and he doesn't. He can't see what happens around him. One time
we were living in this old house and there was a little mouse that was
in the kitchen, and i saw it all the time, but Jack never did. One day
I pointed it out to him, but he just didn't look and see what was around
him. He's like that. |
|
| 19 JACK
|
(interrupting.) That's so unfair. (turning to
Kilian) Sorry. It's just hard to just sit here when she says things like
that. (Shakes his head and settles back into ihs chair as if he is going
to try to avoid talking.) |
|
| 20 JILL |
(Looks at Kilian and shrugs.) |
|
21 KILIAN
|
Jill, could you help me out a bit here? I asked
you about the distinction between what you called "looking and seeing,"
and what you called "having things figured out." You mention the example
of the mouse in the kitchen. And then Jack calls that "unfair." What just
happened? |
|
| 22 JILL |
Jack is in a dreamworld. He thinks he is totally
fair. But he can't see what is right in front of him. There is no way you
could ever get through to him. |
|
23 JACK
|
(to Kilian) Sorry, but I have to interrupt here.
I can't sit here listening to hear say this stuff. It's just wrong. (turning
to Jill) What do you expect, Jill, if you don't tell me anything?! (Jill
drops eye contact with Jack and stares impassively at Kilian, while Jack
continues.) Can't you see, all I can do is imagine what you are thinking.
Of course I'm in my dreamworld, because I am having to dream up what you're
thinking about! Don't you think you should take some responsibility for
me not reading you? After all, I'm not a mindreader. What do you expect?
(turning to Kilian and shaking his head). This is unfair. I don't care
what either of you say. It's unfair that she would expect me to read her
mind! I'm sorry, but I just had to say that. |
|
24 KILIAN
|
Jill, please stay with this. I have asked you
to describe two different situations that have just occurred here, and
both times your responses have been characterizations of Jack. I don't
understand this. Can we walk through it again?
Or, perhaps I could ask whether you understand what I'm asking
you. I'm asking you to expand on what you mean when you say things like
"looking and seeing," and "having things figured out." Why the return to
Jack?
|
|
| 25 JILL
|
I don't understand what you want me to say.
When I said Jack wasn't "looking and seeing" it was because that's Jack.
He thinks he has things figured out. I was talking about Jack. Maybe you
could explain some more? |
|
26 KILIAN
|
Sure, Jill, absolutely. This all goes back to
something you said earlier when you mentioned that Taylor did not side
with Jack against you. If I have this accurately, you said that you thought
that the men would side against you, but that Taylor didn't do that. So
that was something of a surprise from what you expected, yes? |
|
| 27 JILL |
Yes. I was surprised. |
|
28 KILIAN
|
When people are surprised like that, I'm
interested in how they come to expect the things they expect, like it's
something which has occurred in their lives, and they come to expect their
lives to reflect those kind of events. Like the background in which everything
happens.
And when you said something about expecting men to side with each
other against women, I wondered if that kind of background was actually
bigger than Jack, and whether Jack unfortunately seemed to fit into that
background so that whatever you expected from the background and whatever
you expected from Jack somehow came to be the same. And maybe Jack might
be interested in having a choice about whether or not he wanted to be such
a good fit with that background. Or he might have something to say about
whether he would prefer something else himself.
Maybe I should have asked you something more specifically, like what
it was like not to be sided against, and then ask you something about how
that might fit or not fit with what I just said about background. Is this
making any sense so far?
|
|
29 JILL
|
That's interesting. Like there was something
that happened before that made me think men were going to side against
women. I guess that is true in my family. You know, my mother died when
I was fourteen, and she was sick for a year before that. And before she
died, she was my best friend. And, then afterwards, I was really the one
that had to take care of my brother and my father. |
|
| 30 JACK
|
You're not going to put me in the same category
as your brother and father! (to Kilian). I mean, no offense, but your brother's
retarded and your father, I think something's wrong with him, too. |
|
| 31 JILL |
(silent, but gives a facial expression that
sort of shrugs or says, so that's your opinion, or, perhaps, so be it.) |
|
| 32 JACK |
I mean really, Jill. Give me a break. |
|
33 KILIAN
|
Jack, could you back up a step or two? I'm not
sure that jumping to conclusions is going to do anyone much good here.
Before we go down that track, I need to check out a few things with you.
Sort of a review or de-briefing. Can we go there? What did you get from
the way I was speaking to Jill? And what prompted your quick conclusion
about being put in the same category as Jill's father and brother? But
here's the big question : Do you have any ideas about why you went with
the notion of "same category" rather than something connected with Jill's
mentioning the loss of her mother?
I know this is a little raggedy right now. Could we try to hold
back from making snappy responses in the name of doing something different?
|
|
| 34 JACK |
It's just that it is so unfair to treat me as
like Jill's brother, especially. He's SSI. Something
is wrong with him. He used to hold a job in a gas station,
wasn't it Jill? |
|
| 35 JILL |
(nods) |
|
36 JACK
|
But he is definitely retarded, and I don't like
being put in that category. And, Jill's dad, he's not retarded
I suppose. He was a firefighter for years and years, 'till
he was hurt falling off a ladder or something. He's got a limp
now. But they are both pretty sad. They live together
now and kinda take care of each other. Frankly, I don't know
how they do it, but they do.
But, what else did you ask? Oh, yeah, why didn't I mention her
mother? Well, yeah, I could have gone there, I suppose, but I really
don't know what to do about that. Her mother died of breast
cancer when Jill was just a girl, and maybe that has something to
do with the way she is.
|
|
| 37 JILL |
What do you mean "The way I am"? How am
I? |
|
| 38 JACK |
I mean you don't talk. You don't explain
yourself. |
|
| 39 JILL |
You don't give me a chance, Jack. |
|
40 JACK
|
You can start talking any time you want.
I know here it sounds like I talk all the time, but the truth is
when we go on a trip or something there are hours when we don't talk.
Mostly we don't talk. Neither of us talk. Isn't that right? |
|
| 41 JILL |
I guess so. |
|
42 JACK
|
See. She could talk anytime she wanted.
Maybe not here, because I am so anxious to get something going I
just want to move it along. Sometimes I feel like I just want to
get behind her and push her, get her moving. I don't mean moving
exactly, but get her talking. |
|
| 43 JILL |
(is staring at Jack with more interest than
usual - then she sighs and looks at Kilian) |
|
| 44 JACK |
I just don't know what more I can do. |
|
| 45 KILIAN
|
What do you make of the fact that she spoke
the way she did just now about her family, and took my request to think
about the possible difference between what I called the background and
you? |
|
| 46 JACK |
I guess I didn't hear that. What do you
mean? |
|
47 KILIAN
|
Well, sometimes it seems that it's easier to
notice how things aren't the way you guys want them to be, and to have
quick comments based on thinking that things won't change. And other times
there are these little glimmers of difference which begin to appear, like
shafts of light breaking through the clouds. Jill had been talking about
you and all men as if there were just one way to think about men. And I
asked her to think about that, and whether the expectation that men would
side against women was like a background which might be bigger than you.
Like there might be more to the story of men than just you.
And if that background was bigger than you, and not exactly the same
as you, there might be a chance to recognize some little glimmer of difference
between you and the great big story about men. And I was hoping that you
might be interested in what it might be like to have a chance to show that
you could be different, or that you could act differently, from what the
background or "story of men" predicted.
And I was wondering whether you might have something to say about how
you would prefer to act, like whether you'd want to be under the clouds
or standing within a shaft of light. Who knows what that might lead to?
And then Jill told a little story herself. She was willing to step into
the idea about background, to consider something just a little different
from the way she had thought things were.
I wrote down a little of what she said. She mentioned that it was "interesting"
that "something that happened before" "made me think men were going to
side against women."
When you heard her say that, did you get any ideas that this might be
a chance to get something going with Jill that might be different for the
two of you?
Or even now, as you hear it again, do you hear any chance that things
could be different, even just a little bit different?
Or, what does it mean for you that Jill might have been willing to consider
the possibility that things could be different between the two of you?
|
|
48 JACK:
|
Good lord! I didn't hear any of that.
How did I miss it? I'm working so hard at this, I dont' see how I
could work any harder. It's just that I heard her put me in the same category
as her brother and her father and it, well, I guess it just set me off.
I just can't let her do that. And the thought that she would think
of me like them, it's just so
frustrating. But I see what you're doing, I think. I'll
try to listen more. It's hard for me, sometimes...because she doesn't
tell me anything and then when she does let me see how she thinks, she
seems to think so negatively of me, and it's just unfair. |
|
49 KILIAN
|
This reminds me a slogan I learned from a lineman
with the power company. "Don't work harder, work smarter." This is not
a question of working harder.
How negatively could she be thinking of you if she were willing to consider
the possibility of there being a difference between you and the background
story of men in her life?
And I have a background question for you. You said, "I just can't let
her do that." What's the "that" that you're thinking about?
Have you considered the possibility that the "that" you have in mind has
more to do with background or some story in your life than with Jill is
or is not doing?
Would you rather be paying attention to the "that" or to the kind of
stuff I mentioned earlier? Stuff like recognizing the chance to get something
going with Jill that might be different for the two of you? Or that Jill
might have been willing to consider the possibility that things could
be different between the two of
you?
|
|
50 JACK
|
(starts to speak) Jack, before you answer, could
I say that I do appreciate how hard you've worked, and that I want to help
you learn how to work in ways that work better for you, and for you and
Jill? That's what I mean by working "smarter." I hope that you can ponder
these questions, even if they do sound a bit different form what you're
used to. |
|
| 51 JACK |
I realize I must be doing something wrong.
I just can't see what
it is. And it makes it doubly hard for me when no one acknowledges
what
I am doing. I think that's unfair. If you think I
should look at my
baggage, too, that's fine. But in this case, I just think
that I was
insulted. Jill's brother and father are a piece of work,
really. I can understand that she would have baggage, and with
her mother dying and all. But her brother has something really
wrong with him. He's weird. And the father, he's not
much different. They hardly talk. I don't mean they just
don't talk with each other. they just don't talk. I would
have hated to grow up in that house. My house, by comparison, was
great. It was my brother, who is just a year older, and me.
We shared a room,
and we were best pals. I don't know what I would do without
him. We're still close. And I have an older sister, too,
that I like. We used to tease her a little, but she liked us
anyway. And my parents, well, they would argue, but it was
all good natured arguing, if you know what I mean. And we did
fun things together. We lived in a nice house. The only
thing I can think of that was difficult for us was when my dad had
his heart attack. But, then that turned out to be kinda nice for
us because he quit work and he was always there. And he's still
there. He
eats healthy.
I just want to have the same kind of family, the same kind of
life for my kids. I think I could be a good father.
And i want Jill to be a mom. We could make a great family.
What woman wouldn't want that? Most guys my age don't want
to commit, but I do. And, I really love her, and I am willing
to work hard to make all this work. I think I'm a great deal for
a husband. (laughs) What other husband would do all of that and wash
the dishes, too. And it is hard, too, ause I never know what
she is thinking.
Do you think she is so quiet because of the way she grew up? Without
a mother and with her brothers so quiet? Cause I could totally
understand that. It's sad, and I would hope that she would
change, but I could understand that.
|
|
| 52 JILL |
(listening and looking passive, no apparent
urge to speak.) |
|
| 53 JACK |
Jack, I'm lost. What did you think I was
asking you just now? |
|
54 JACK
|
I thought you wanted to know about my background,
and maybe you were thinking that something in my background, my baggage,
would make me say that I couldn't let Jill say I was like her brother
and her father. So, I thought you wanted to know about my background.
Is that wrong? |
|
| 55 KILIAN |
Wrong? How does the notion of "wrong" come into
play? I'm trying to get a sense of how this stuff works with the two of
you, and somehow or other the idea of someone being wrong keeps popping
up. Might you have any idea of how this idea of "wrong" keeps finding its
way into our conversation? |
|
| 56 JACK
|
I thought you just said that I had answered
the wrong question. I'm confused. I thought you were
asking some interesting questions. I do think our childhood
has an effect on the way we do things. Jill had a crummy childhood.
I understand that. In comparison mine was really a piece of
cake. One of the things I dream about (turning to Jill) is
finding a way to give you that kind of warm family experience. |
|
| 57 JILL |
(rolls her eyes) |
|
58 JACK
|
See that! What can I do? Can you
believe that? I am trying to be loving and she is taking it
the wrong way. (Turning to Kilian) You think I'm doing something
wrong, don't you. That I'm not working smart. Well, I'm
listening. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong, because I just can't
see it! |
|
| 59 JILL |
You talk too much, Jack. |
|
60 JACK
|
Ah, the queen speaks! I talk so much because
you don't talk at all. I have to talk for both of us.
Why don't you talk more, then. (sits back in his chair sullenly)
(looking at Kilian) Just please don't tell me that you think
I'm causing all this, cause I don't buy it. |
|
| 61 KILIAN |
(after long pause) Jack, please take it easy.
I'm interested in having a conversation with you, but when I hear your
responses, I find it hard to recognize something which bears much resemblance
to what I said. Like this whole thing was some kind of fight or something.
Calling Jill a queen, setting up a disagreement over things like who
causes what, and having your response already teed up.
What is this? |
|
62 JACK
|
(looking taken aback) Well, I'm feeling like
she blames me
unfairly. If I don't defend myself, who will? What's
wrong with
defending yourself a little when someone is trying to put a trip
on you? |
|
| 63 kILIAN |
How do we know that's what she was trying? |
|
| 64 JACK
|
Well, maybe I'm wrong. But it sounded
to me like she was blaming me when she said I talked to much.
You wouldn't take that as an insult? |
|
| 65 KILIAN |
Jack, would you be willing to review what was
going on here when this little disturbance started? |
|
66 JACK
|
Frankly, I don't remember exactly what
started it. I just remember her saying that I talked too much.
Could I listen to the tape you're making? Or is that a point
you want to make about me? That I don't listen enough.
Because I think I was listening. I just felt, again, that people
here, don't recognize how hard I'm trying, how hard it is to live
with a woman who never talks. And, to have her accuse me of talking
too much ...(slams his fist on the arm of the chair and stares off in the
distance for a moment as if to get his bearings. Then turns to Kilian
in a composed voice.) Look, I'm willing to listen to you and learn
from you, but you have to understand this much about me: I am trying.
I have a very difficult situation. Accusing me of talking too
much, when she doesn't talk at all, is just unfair. If you
think I talk too much, then get her to talk more and have her say
something other than "Jack you talk too much." I think you
have gotten to some interesting material when you started talking
about our backgrounds. I feel sure that is what is involved.
I really think you should look into that. But, if you think
I'm screwing up and want me to look at what was said, okay. You're
the boss here. But I don't remember what was being said, so
either you'll have to tell me, or else turn on the tape for me.
Okay? |
|
67 KILIAN
|
Jack, thanks for being willing to do this. From
where I stand, this is not about you screwing up or not working hard enough.
Those aren't productive areas of discussion, at least as far as I can see
in all of this.
I have to also say, for myself, that I have experienced Jill as someone
who has spoken and not as someone who has refused to speak.
I asked Jill about how surprising it was to not be sided against by
both you and Taylor. And I was hoping, based on what Jill said, that you
might see some chance, however slight, to occupy some different place in
Jill's world or her view of things. There's more to say, but are you with
me so far?
|
|
68 JACK
|
I do think Taylor and I didn't side up together
against Jill, and
she seemed to notice that. But other than that, I'm not
sure I
understand what you're saying to me. You think i might
think there is a slight chance that what? That Jill might not
think I'm siding up against her? |
|
| 69 KILIAN
|
Firstly, that she might remember your not siding
against her, and
what it would mean to you to realize that Jill remembered that you
didn't side against her. |
|
70 JACK
|
I see. I guess I missed that. What
I noticed was that she said I talked too much. Oh, well.
Well, yes, on second thought, I guess I did notice that she said
that Taylor and I didn't side against her, but let me tell you how
I understood that. I understood her to be saying that Taylor
didn't team up with me to be against her, but that i was against
her. That's how I was hearing it. I would be amazed if Jill
said I didn't do things wrong. She is either quiet or she's
critical. |
|
| 71 KILIAN
|
But is it fair to say that in this instance
which we're discussing,
she is being neither? The instance is that she said that you and Taylor
did not side against her. |
|
72 JACK
|
Yes, I guess I can accept that, in this instance,
at least on the
surface. It just seems like she is always against me. Hard
for me to take in that she sometimes is even neutral, not blaming in a
neutral way, if you know what I mean. It seems to me that every
rock I pick up I find a little more of her angry poison. |
|
73 KILIAN
|
OK, I know that this is hard, and I appreciate
your effort. Can we
go a little further in this vein?
What enables you to recognize, right now, that in this one instance
we're talking about, that Jill was not blaming or against you, when she
said that she recognized that you and Taylor were not siding against her?
|
|
74 JACK
|
Good question. I suppose it is that she
could have gotten in a dig if she wanted to. She could have
said that Taylor didn't side against her but I did -- but she didn't.
She didn't say anything about whether I was siding against her or
not, and sometimes saying nothing is better than saying something. |
|
| 75 KILIAN |
Jack, how are we supposed to interpret that? |
|
76 JACK
|
Just that she could have blamed me, but she
didn't, so I recognized that this was an instant in which she didn't
blame me. Isn't that what you asked me? What enabled
me to recognize that she wasn't blaming me? |
|
| 77 KILIAN |
Yes, what helps you now to see that she wasn't
blaming you? |
|
78 JACK
|
I don't know. Maybe just that you asked
me to think about it. But
let me say that I think she secretly blamed me even still.
I admit she didn't say anything that was blaming at that point, but
still I think know what she thinks about me. She shows it all
the time, well, maybe not that time. Thank you for discussing
this with me. This is the crux of the problem, I think.
She seems to blame me all the time, in my mind, and I think it is
true. But, I agree, when you ask me, that in this one instance
she was not blaming me. It is hard when she does, too, because
I can't discuss it with her, and I don't really know what she is blaming
me for. I think this must be the real problem here, at least as far
as I'm concerned. |
|
79
KILIAN:
|
Okay, could we take this another step? Would
you prefer that she see that you recognize that this one time she was not
blaming you, or would you prefer that she see that you could not recognize
that this one time she was not blaming you? |
|
| 80 JACK |
I recognize that she wasn't blaming me openly
at that moment, and I want her to recognize it. Is that what
you mean? |
|
81 KILIAN
|
Yes. Now Jack, could you please say why you
prefer that she recognize or acknowledge that you recognize or know that
she wasn't blaming you? Or, to put it another way, might that suggest
something about the possibility that every so often Jill might be able
to see you differently than the way you expect her to see you? |
|
| 82 JACK |
I didn't follow that. Would you try it
again? |
|
| 83 KILIAN |
Sure. By and large, do you expect Jill to see
you in certain ways and to think of you in certain ways? |
|
| 84 JACK
|
Yes, I think so. I have come to expect
her to blame me, to be
biased against me and to presume the worse, to not notice the
things that I do that are positive. Is that what you mean? |
|
85 KILIAN
|
Yes. And given that, are you interested to learn
more about those times, however seldom, when Jill does something different
from what you have come to expect of her, in terms of how she sees you
or thinks of you? |
|
| 86 JACK |
You mean when she doesn't presume that I am
totally to blame for things? |
|
| 87 JILL |
Yes, or when she might recognize that you're
doing something
differently from the way things usually are. |
|
| 88 KILIAN |
OK, what would it take for you to be in a position
to recognize these times that we're talking about? |
|
89 JACK:
|
That she recognize what a difficult situation
I am in, and her part
in making it difficult, that would surely help me start listening
in that way. Or, if she can't recognize it, Kilian, at least
you recognizing it would help. I don't know if that would be
enough, just for you to recognize it. But it would surely help.
I just feel that no one is paying attention to my situation, and
I can talk until I'm blue in the face, sometimes, and no one listens
to me. |
|
90 KILIAN
|
OK, that helps a lot. How would you characterize
the way that I paid attention to you, especially since the time when you
thought Jill was lumping you with her father and brother? The father and
brother thing is just a marker here. How did you experience my speaking
with you? |
|
91 JACK
|
I appreciated it. It felt like *maybe*
you would listen. I
realize you have to listen to Jill, too. That's your job,
and I,
frankly, don't know how you do it. I couldn't do it.
But it's not your job to take sides. I know that, even though
in my heart I kind of feel I am the one with the stronger side and
you should, morally speaking, take my side because of it. But
I know you have to listen to both of us and figure out how to help
us, what advice to give us, so that neitheR of us feel left out.
I'm not stupid. I know that. But it feels to me that it
would be easy to see Jill as the one in need of help, the damsel in
distress, and for me to not be listened to, and I can't have that.
It felt like you were listening to me a little bit and not just trying
to take care of her. |
|
| 92 JILL |
(Audible deep breath) |
|
| 93 KILIAN |
How much is a little bit? |
|
| 94 JACK: |
Well, let's say it sounds like maybe you are
listening to me, I'm
hopeful, but I don't entirely trust it. |
|
| 95 KILIAN |
Jack, what would it take for you to trust my
listening to you? |
|
| 96 JACK |
Good question. I wish I knew. But
I do feel that I have a sense
when someone is trustworthy. Don't you? Only sometimes
I don't know. At any rate, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt
for now. I do believe you are trying. |
|
97 KILIAN
|
I think we need to wrap this up for now. There
are many more
questions which come to mind, but they'll have to wait for another
time. When we have the chance, I'd like to continue with the question of
trust and how you know someone is trying, Jack.
Before we end, Jill, I'd like to thank you for being patient for
the time that Jack and I have been talking. And I'd like to ask you what
you're taking from this session.
|
|
98 JILL
|
It was interesting. I think you have your
work cut out for you, Kilian, and that your heart is in the right
place. It's not hard for me to sit here and have you talk with
Jack, actually. He seems to me to be thinking more and say
more interesting things to you than he does to me. But, he says some
of the same stuff, too, that I have heard for ever, so I don't know.
Maybe you will be the person to figure all this out. |
|
99 JACK
|
And, if I can comment, too, I think it has been
an interesting session as well. Jill and I agree! Believe it
or not. And we should agree, sometimes, because we are after
all in a relationship. Thank you for your patience. If
our relationship is going to work, we really need help, and I have
hope that you will be able to help us. Actually, I think I
have already profited from this. I think I'm seeing things
more clearly. I know I might not always sound like it, but
I still think it's true. I mean, when I think back about it,
I didn't even know that what was upsetting Jill when I kissed her
after the accident was that her teeth were loose from the accident.
Jill never told me, if you can imagine that. |
|
| 100 JILL |
(smiles knowingly and shakes her head) |
|
| 101 KILIAN |
So we'll pick it up here when we resume? Thank
you for your participation. Are there any last words? |
|