Jack and Jill: Session Two
This case is part of a series of imaginary therapy cases being constructed on the PMTH listserv for analysis and study of the therapy process on PMTH.  The transcripts are being composed collaboratively by professional therapists. Click here to return to the TOC for this transcript series.
Jack & Jill, First session (with Taylor):
reflecting team (led by Kilian, team included Marsha, Val, Riet)
second session (with Taylor)
1  TAYLOR
 
Ok, so were there things the reflecting team said y'all wanted to comment on?
 
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2  JACK
 
 

 

Wow! You guys really have a a lot of things to say about us!  It was fascinating to hear you talk about us like that.  Hmmm (glancing over at Jill who is sitting with her hand hiding a visible smile on her face, perhaps an embarrassed smile, hard to tell.) I guess I can speak for me. It is true I guess that unfairness is really in my mind a lot nowadays.
 
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3  TAYLOR
 
I see.  So it was the idea of unfairness that caught your ear.  And Jill, how about you??
 
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4 JILL
 
I guess Jack and I both feel that the other has been unfair. Is that what you mean?
 
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5 TAYLOR
 
 
Well, more in general, I wanted Jill to comment on what aspects of the reflections caught her ear.
 
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6 JILL
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Well, it was kind of embarrassing to have all these people talking about our private business, embarrassing, but kind of good, too. (15 seconds silence while she looks like she is trying to say something).  I think the thing that struck me though was something the woman in the maroon jacket said.  She said something about "When people have been struggles like we have they almost always have been talking with others about things" (#7) I think this is more true for Jack.  I don't like the way he does this either.  I think he even talks about our sex life with his brother.  They are just like twins, only the brother's older.  And that's what came to mind for me. I don't really have anybody to talk to like that.
 
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7  JACK
 
You talk to Jennifer.
 
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8 TAYLOR

 

(interrupting):  So Jill, you found that idea of talking with others interesting.  What else did you find interesting??
 
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9  JILL
 
 
 
 
Well, the woman in the red blouse, What was her name?, she was talking about disappointment.  She asked what it was that disappointed me. I think what disappointed me was disovering Jack's true character. I always wanted someone sensitive and loving.  That just isn't Jack.
 
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10 JACK
 
How can I be loving?  You won't give me a chance!
 
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11 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
Wow Jack!  I see that the forces of conflict are pretty hard for you to resist.  But onetheless, at the moment I'd like to ask you to put yourself in the role of listener - sort of like the listening you received from the reflecting team.

So you resonated to ideas of disappointment as well.  Anything else?
 

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12 JACK
 
(looking surprised and then shrugging and settling back)
 
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13 JILL
 
 

 

Just talk about the unfairness and the disappointment.  Those things rang true for me.  Oh, yes, there, uh, was something about four marriages?  Something like that, and I was curious about that.  And there was something, too, about there being different concepts, or something like that, too.  I didn't understand that.
 
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14 JACK
 
(quietly) I did.
 
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15 TAYLOR
 
Jack, would you care to talk about what you understood?
 
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16 JACK
 
 

 

It was that lady in the violet blouse. She was saying that we had different concepts of love and so we couldn't agree.  Isn't that right? I think that was very smart. I think that's true, too.  We do have different concepts.  Jill thinks that I don't love her if I kiss her too
hard, don't you?
 
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17 TAYLOR

 

Jack, think about what you just said.  Is that really how you understand Jill's ideas about love?  Or, is that another way of saying that you're angry ... or is it something else??
 
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18 JACK
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Well, I feel blamed by her and I feel it's unfair. I am doing everything I can.  I can't believe you don't see that.  I think anybody would see that.  I can't understand.  How was I to know that her teeth were bothering her.  You know, it just occurred to me that you didn't
know that this was the first time she told me that her teeth were loose that night. Did you know that?  I knew that there was something wrong, that her tooth was broken, but I didn't really know that her teeth were loose.  Cause she didn't tell me!  I didn't even know that teeth even get loose like that?  And then get tight again?  I didn't know that?  How
could I ask?  Can't you see what a predicament that puts me in?  Damn!

(Jack suddenly stands up for a moment and stamps his right foot in an odd way, as if to straighten his pants or get the kinks out of his muscles, but then he looks out the window.  It's unclear what he's doing.  He walks over a few feet to the window and stands there looking out.  Jill looks surprised at his standing.  While Jack's looking out the window, he resumes talking.) No, wait just a minute.  You asked me to stop and think.  What was I to think about? I was supposed to think about if Jill's idea of love was really as I said, that I wouldn't  have really kissed her hard if I really loved her. (Sigh)

(Jack walks back over and sits back down. He is talking quietly, not looking at anyone.)  I guess not.  I guess that isn't really what Jill thinks of as "love." I guess she wants something i can't give her, but it's not just not kissing her hard.  I guess I see your point.  (Then there is a sudden change of voice.) But you seem to be missing my point, Doc.  You seem to be taking sides here and I don't think I can understand Jill if you can't understand me, too.  The point is that I love her with all my heart and that I'm the one trying to make this marriage work and right now she has just completely shut down and there is nothing I can do to make it work. I don't see how I can go on unless she admits that she's not trying anymore, and that I am.  And it seems to me, Doc, that you are just taking sides here, that you aren't really trying to help us, or not trying to help me, anyway. That's how I feel. I put out good money to come here and you just side with her.  I'm trying my best here, and I need you to look at my side.  I need that, man.  I'm trying here.
 

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19 TAYLOR:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Jack, I have absolutely no question in my mind that you are trying - and I am equally convinced Jill is trying.  I am certain neither of you would bother to spend your time and money otherwise.

I hope you recognize, though, that if the two of you just repeat the same old conversation, it'll likely have the same old result. I'm challenging you - both of you - to orient to each other in a different way - to try talking about the same vitally important issues differently.  Therein lies your chance.  You said you felt like I was taking sides.  That's not my experience, but I see why you got that idea.  Rest assured that over time you will each probably think from time to time I'm siding with the other.  Besides, Jack, (Taylor smiles and tilts head a little) you *are* calling a lot of attention to how you communicate.  Your way of emphasizing things
really calls my attention there.  You're free, by the way to challenge me about siding with Jill anytime.  I'd appreciate it.  Jill, same for you.
 

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20 JACK
 
 
Well, I keep repeating myself because I feel that no one hears my point, and it's so obvious, I can't believe it's ignored.
 
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21 JILL
 
What's your point, Jack?
 
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22 JACK
 
 
That I am doing everything humanly possible to fix our situation
and you're not doing one damn thing.
 
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23 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Well Jack, I guess I'm about to risk that you're again going to think I'm taking sides.  But what I'm trying to do is balance the conversation a bit.

While I am firmly convinced you are trying everything you could think of to do -- I'm sure there are also some things you have not tried.

As I said - I'm also convinced Jill is trying to everything she knows how to do -- I guess we're both repeating things now.

Here's the thing -- I see you trying to help things - to make this marriage work -- yet I have to tell you that by leading with your anger and resentment -- I think you are inadvertently making things worse.  Are you willing to try some more things that are human possible?  Or is it important to you to believe you've done everything??
 

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24 JACK
 
 

 

No, no.  I'm willing to try more things. I'm sure you're right, that there are more things I can do, and I'm willing to do them.  At least I think I'm willing to do them. I'm glad you're going to give me some advice.  That's what I came for.  But, doc, it's not going to be all
for me to fix this relationship, is it?  I mean, you're going to give Jill some advice, too. Right?
 
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25 TAYLOR
 

 

Great!  Of course it wouldn't be up to either of you alone to fix the relationship - I think that'd be impossible.  I plan - I hope to have some ideas for Jill as well.  What would you like some ideas about??
 
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26 JACK
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I guess I want to make the relationship work, and I don't know what else I can do.  So maybe you could give us some ideas, but, as I'm talking, I kind of realize, that I feel that I am already taking on the burden of responsibility here and I'm kind of worried that you might want
me to do even more stuff, maybe mow the lawn more, wash the car more. I don't know. And I want to say that I'm about at my limit.  I don't know what else I can humanly do. I mean, you might think of other things I could do, clean the bathrooms, but I am not sure there would be time in the day.  And, besides, Jill needs to do some things, too. You see that, don't you?
 
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27 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Great.  I have to tell you it's really kind of neat to see you really working - in some ways really putting yourself on the line to help this relationship improve.

I think probably you will have to do more stuff to make the relationship work, but I suspect there's really a lot more to it that the lawn, the laundry or any other task.  I don't know for sure, but I really suspect it's more about the human relationship that exists between the two of you.

I also suspect it'll be important for Jill to work on the relationship as well.

You asked for some ideas -- I may yet have some more, but I guess the first idea I have for you is to ask your partner what ideas she has for what kinds of things both of you can do to improve things.  I bet you have some ideas for both of you as well.
 

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28 JACK: 
 
 
 
 

 

Thank you. I do feel that I have been working hard, and I know that there are other things I could do,and that I would be willing to do, but I just don't know what they are.  So, I'm glad for your suggestions.  And I would be more than willing to ask Jill anything.  Maybe when she's in here, she'd answer. She never answers me when we're alone. We can go to dinner and she won't talk. (turning to Jill) Ah,... Jill...What do you think? What do you think both of us can do to improve our relationship.
 
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29 JILL
 
 
(turning to Taylor)  That really puts me on the spot.  I'm not sure
I know what to say.
 
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30 JACK
 
Just say what comes to your mind. I know you're thinking something.
 
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31 JILL
 
 

 

Yeah, but this is important and I really don't know what to say.  I mean I can tell you, sort of, what you're doing wrong, but I don't know how to fix it. I don't know what I'm doing that causes this either. Cause there's a way I feel that I'm doing everything I know how to do,
too.
 
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32 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Ok, Jill -- so you've really been working at it as well! Bet it's nice to know - sure nice for me to hear both of you say that.

If I could offer a suggestion - I'd suggest both of you begin to speak about your desires for the relationship -- not so much what the other is doing "wrong" -- but rather statements about what you want.

It's a beginning - it's important to know that the flip side of this is equally important - what you want is balanced by what you want to give back.

Any thoughts about this for either of you ???  Remember it's important - if you can, not to allow yourselves to be taken over by a resentful presence and speak from the heart.
Does that make sense??
 

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33 JACK
 
 
 
 
 

 

Well, I want us to be happy together and to share in the work. Every relationship has to share in the work.  You can't live if you don't work some.  And i don't want to do it all. I want us to share. And I want  us to celebrate our lives together, to have fun, to go to movies and come home and enjoy each other, to eat dinner together, to make love, to wake up in the morning feeling good about each other.

Is that what you mean you want us to do?
 

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34 TAYLOR
 
Yes!  Jill, how about you?
 
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35 JILL
 

 

What do I want?  I think what I want is to overcome the negative feelings that I have. I just can't seem to forgive Jack until he acknowledges that he abused me when he insisted on kissing me.  You know, it feels almost like rape.
 
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36 JACK
 
 
Rape?!  I just don't see how I can, in conscious, admit to anything wrong.  How can you blame me?  You didn't even tell me about your teeth.
 
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37 JILL
 
I shouldn't have to, Jack.  I said I didn't want you to kiss me. Didn't I?
 
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38 JACK
 
 
You can't hold me responsible for what I don't know. I didn't
understand.
 
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39 JILL
 
 
 

 

(To Taylor) See! He can't listen to me.  You ask what I want different?  My dream is to have something different than this.  I want a partner who can listen to me. Remember that woman in a red blouse?  She talked about my disappointment.  And that's right.  I feel she hit it on
the head.  I am disappointed that I can't have a husband who can respect my wishes more than Jack does, and recognize his fault, change his ways.
 
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40 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Jack, excuse me, but I think you're missing the point. At least you're missing what I was trying to say.  Let me suggest that this is not about trying to decide if it was rape or not.
Jill's phrase was:  "it feels almost like rape".  That's her feeling about it.  I would like to suggest that as her partner - someone wants to share with her, celebrate your lives together, have fun, make love, and wake up in the morning feeling good about each other - to use *your* words - it is important for you to understand her well enough to feel like you can understand her feeling - and she yours.  How does that fit with what you want - with your goals for this counseling process???
 
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41 JACK
 

 

(half under his breath) Yeah, well, she *shouldn't* feel that way. It's unfair.  (Looking up and speaking louder)  I didn't know what was going on with her.  How could I know?  How can she hold me responsible for that?
 
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42 TAYLOR

 

So Jack, let me see if I understand you.  You didn't know what was going on with her.  I'm also curious - had you known, how do you think it would've been different?
 
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43 JACK 

 

If I had known her teeth were loose?   I would have been sensitive. Why not?  Of course, I would have.  I just didn't know.  I don't understand why she didn't tell me.
 
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44 JILL
 
I don't like to have to tell you everything.
 
45 TAYLOR
 

 

Jack, you would've have been more sensitive.  I thought so.  Good to know.  Jill, I wonder if you could expand on your statement that you don't like to have to tell Jack
everything.
 
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46 JILL
 
 

 

Jack is a person that gets started doing something and it's really hard to stop him.  He's kind of like a truck driver driving fast and he's going to run into this person, and people say "Stop!" and he wants an explanation. And he doesn't stop to wait for the explanation.  Actually, he doesn't want an explanation.  He just wants to do what he wants to do.
 
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47 JACK
 
(silent)
 
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48 TAYLOR
 
 
 

 

Jill, I'm sitting here watching, noting that Jack is silently listening -- You've said you don't think he wants an explanation --. I get that at times in the past you've felt he didn't want an
explanation - but I wonder if you could consider the possibility that this is a different time, and that at the present moment, he is interested and predisposed to listen to what you have to say.
 
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49 JILL
 
 
 
 
 

 

Oh, gee.  It's hard for me to explain.  I'm not as good at this as Jack is.  ...  Maybe it's like this:  I have to trust that Jack isn't going to take advantage of me, that he's sensitive to my needs.  If I can't explain why at the moment, I need him to be sensitive to themanyway.  I think he thinks that everyone is verbal like him, and I'm not. Do you understand what I mean?  Can you help me explain it to him?  Sometimes I feel that there is no hope, that Jack will never understand me.  Do you feel like you understand me?  I just know that sometimes Jack walks over me and I can't seem to get my breath!
 
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50 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Wow!  Thanks Jill.  I think I understand what you mean - it's interesting to hear you talk about yourself as less verbal than Jack.  It was also very important to me to hear you talk about needing Jack to be sensitive - as well as saying how and when that was
particularly important.  I might be able to help explain that to Jack - it there's any need to.  Seems like the first step to me is to check with Jack to see how much he already understands.

So Jack, I wonder how much of what Jill has just said is stuff you already know from living your lives together??
 

0.3/26
51 JACK
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

She's never said anything like that to me.  (sighs)  It's really discouraging to hear that. I just don't know what I can do to fix things unless she tells me stuff.  And here the main thing that I'm learning is that she has big things going on inside her and she just doesn't talk about it.  What does she expect me to do if she doesn't explain things? Does she expect me to just shut up?  Nothing would ever happen if I did that.  I don't think she would have come in here if I didn't insist. (turning to Jill) This really is unfair to me.  Why don't you explain yourself?  Do you have any idea what this does to our relationship for you to hold everything inside like that?  What am I supposed to do?
 
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52 JILL
 
(to Taylor) It frightens me to try to talk when he's like this.
 
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53 Taylor
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(to Jill) I can see why.  Jack, I'm really puzzled - You're clearly saying you want Jill to open up to you - an important point, I think - and then I can't understand your reaction.  I think she is giving you an incredible gift - a gift of her voice.  I hope you can see that, as well as seeing how you yourself have given her your voice.  I think the critical issue is how each of you can learn to be receptive to, and in dialogue with, each other - to
keep your marriage alive.  I hope this is something you feel like working on in future sessions.
 
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54 JACK
 
 
 
 
 
 
Sigh.  Doc, I know you're wanting to quit, but I really need to talk with you just a moment privately.  I know Jill wouldn't mind.  This is important.  If you won't, I'll talk to you with her here, but this is really something I'd rather tell you alone.  I mean, she likes to keep
her privacy, maybe I need a little bit of that, too.  Just five minutes. I just want to be private to answer your question.
 
 
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55 JILL
 
(looks surprised)
 
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56Taylor
 
 
Jack, I just can't imagine how the two of us talking alone would be in the best interests of helping the two of you as a couple.
 
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57 JACK
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(eyes darting over over at Jill apprehensively) Well, I guess I'll say it here.  Sometimes, Doc, I worry that I'm mentally ill here.  I mean I feel like I do the best I can do here, I do everything I can, and I can't do any more.  Jill doesn't talk to me.  Do you have any idea how hard it can be to live with someone who doesn't tell you what's on her
mind?  And I do one thing wrong and she holds a grudge forever and I don't even know what it is.  If I'm missing something, doc, then it's got to be because somethign is wrong with me, because it sure isn't because I'm not trying!  And if there is something wrong with me, if I'm mentally ill or something, then it seems I need to have a private therapist, or maybe medication or something.  And you seem to be saying this is all me. I just can't see it unless there is something really wrong with me.
 
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58 TAYLOR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Well Jack, I have absolutely no doubt there is something wrong with you.  I wouldn't want to call it mental illness, because the main thing I see is someone who has been doing the best he knows how to do - has been frustrated, gotten his feelings hurt, and so on.  Is that what you would call mental illness?

Oh, and just to reassure you, I also think there's something wrong with Jill.  And for that matter, with me.  I hope feeling crazy, or "mentally ill", or frustrated, or hurt, or angry, or confused, or anything doesn't stop us from trying to move forward and get what we want from life.

Jack, I doubt it has always been this way, but in the short time I've known you, you seem to lead, in your interactions with Jill and myself, with the hard edge of your personality, not the tender underside.  It's OK to be hurt and fearful.  I guess it's ok to give up too, but I really wouldn't recommend it.  As I've said before - I think you're clearly working hard here - I'm a little shocked though that you're so quick to jump in and work on yourself that Jill has had very little time on the hot seat. Are you really that protective of her feelings?
 

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59 JACK
 
How do you mean? 
 
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60 Taylor
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Well, I mean you've stated several times you're working as hard as you can - and it's seemed to me - while I've been watching - that you are doing the lion's share of putting
yourself on the hot seat - I don't know if it's your intention, but it seems that Jill has been kept so busy responding to you that she hasn't been compelled to bring her own issues
into our meetings.  Maybe it's time to re-think your efforts a bit - maybe instead of working as hard as you can - we can concentrate a bit on working better, more ffectively, more efficiently -- the idea of teamwork comes to mind again - you know if there's 2 or 3 horses in a team, and one keeps pushing ahead, he does most of the work and the others can just coast - he does better in the long haul by sharing the load.  Make sense??
 
 
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61 JACK
 
Yes, that makes sense to me.  Is it time to quit?  Or shall we keep going?
 
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62 TAYLOR
 
Feels like a good place to stop for the day to me.
 
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